PARADOXES in EM theory ??

starter

If two protons are moving at a speed v relative two you through space in the same direction and are separated by a small distance, you will see them exert a magnetic force upon each other, because they are essentially two currents running in the same direction. However, if you are moving along with the protons at speed v, such that they appear to you as stationary, you would measure only an electrostatic force pushing them apart. So how could it be that two protons will attract each other in one frame of reference yet repel in another?

Good one

E&M Paradox

I first read about this apparent paradox in QED and the Men Who Made It: Dyson, Feynman, Schwinger, and Tomonoga by Silivan S. Schweber. Feynman was presented the puzzle while at Los Alamos during WWII (by Ted Welton, a friend he kept a joint physics notebook with while an undergraduate at MIT.) Be warned, it took Feynman all night to solve this:

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(from The Feynman Lectures on Physics, Vol. II sec. 17-4)

Imagine that we construct a device like that shown in the figure. There is a thin, circular plastic disc supported on a concentric shaft with excellent bearings, so that it is quite free to rotate. On the disc is a coil of wire in the form of a short solenoid concentric with the axis of rotation. This solenoid carries a steady current I provided by a small battery, also mounted on the disc. Near the edge of the disc and spaced uniformly around its circumference are a number of small metal spheres insulated from each other and from the solenoid by the plastic material of the disc. Each of these small conducting spheres is charged with the same electrostatic charge Q. Everything is quite stationary, and the disc is at rest. Suppose now that by some accident-or by prearrangement-the current in the solenoid is interrupted, without, however, any intervention from the outside. So long as the current continued, there was a magnetic flux through the solenoid more or less parallel to the axis of the disc. When the current is interrupted, this flux must go to zero. There will, therefore, be an electric field induced which will circulate around in circles centered at the axis. The charged spheres on the perimeter of the disc will all experience an electric field tangential to the perimeter of the disc. This electric force is in the same sense for all the charges and so will result in a net torque on the disc. From these arguments we would expect that as the current in the solenoid disappears, the disc would begin to rotate. If we knew the moment of inertia of the disc, the current in the solenoid, and the charges on the small spheres. we could compute the resulting angular velocity.

But we could also make a different argument. Using the principle of the conservation of angular momentum, we could say that the angular momentum of the disc with all its equipment is initially zero, and so the angular momentum of the assembly should remain zero. There should be no rotation when the current is stopped. Which argument is correct? Will the disc rotate or will it not? We will leave this question for you to think about.

We should warn you that the correct answer does not depend on any nonessential feature, such as the asymmetric position of a battery, for example. In fact, you can imagine an ideal situation such as the following: The solenoid is made of superconducting wire through which there is a current. After the disc has been carefully placed at rest, the temperature of the solenoid is allowed to rise slowly. When the temperature of the wire reaches the transition temperature between superconductivity and normal conductivity, the current in the solenoid will be brought to zero by the resistance of the wire. The flux will, as before, fall to zero, and there will be an electric field around the axis. We should also warn you that the solution is not easy, nor is it a trick. When you figure it out, you will have discovered an important principle of electromagnetism.

20 Answers

3
msp ·

In the frame of reference the protons seem to be at rest.Since the charges are not moving wrt the moving frame it doesnt seem to be producd magnetic fields.In this case we can see only the electrostatic force of repulsion.

But in the first case the protons will experience both the magnetic force and the electrostatic force.The magnitude of the forces largely depends on the velocity.

9
Celestine preetham ·

u ve edited ur posts :(

anyway

argument 2 is still wrong!

see here magnetic field B is also moving with velocity v

so relative velocity of proton wrt B is 0 hence Fmagnetic = 0

1
Anurag Khandelwal ·

that does not change the fact that any charge in motion constitutes a current.

what about my other argument?

9
Celestine preetham ·

i was expecting this Q from someone

glad u asked it :)

see in the case of current carrying conductors " protons are at rest , electrons are at motion "

so there is relative motion between e and p

now do u get it ?

1
Anurag Khandelwal ·

@Celestine
see the protons dont exert magnetic force at all bcos their relative velocity is 0 btw them .

Argument 1
If this is true then two identical wires carrying the same current in the same direction also have electrons moving at zero relative velocity! How do they then exert an attractive magnetic force??

Argument 2
Even if you don't consider the two protons as parallel currents, then proton#1 having velocity v exerts a magnetic field at a certain distance of magnitude B(say) where proton#2 is moving with a velocity v as well. Then proton#2 must experience a force +evB which, if you examine the situation carefully, is directed towards the other proton. The same is true for the other proton as well!

I do not think your explanation is completely correct... No offence! :)

9
Celestine preetham ·

the ans to starter is simple

see the protons dont exert magnetic force at all bcos their relative velocity is 0 btw them .

"
you will see them exert a magnetic force upon each other, because they are essentially two currents running in the same direction.
"

is false statement . u cant compare it with an infinitely long current carrying conductor for obvious reasons

1
king_khan ·

arre .. sum1 tell whether it is correct or not ????

1
king_khan ·

hey i m also feeling that we cannot take them as two currents in the same direction . C .. for a current to flow, flow of a charge in one direction should be the same as the flow of a opposite charge in the opposite direction . So we cannot simply talk of protons moving at a speed v. negative charge carriers have to included in the frame a) to maintain charge neutrality in the frame b) to explain the flow of proton as current.

So. when the protons move in 1st frame, the negative carriers are stationary and in the second frame, the negative carriers are moving relative to the observer (in the opposite direction) and the protons are stationary. So the physical situation turns out to be the same in each case.

is it sumwat correct ??

9
Celestine preetham ·

ans for starter

If two protons are moving at a speed v relative two you through space in the same direction and are separated by a small distance, you will see them exert a magnetic force upon each other, because they are essentially two currents running in the same direction. However, if you are moving along with the protons at speed v, such that they appear to you as stationary, you would measure only an electrostatic force pushing them apart. So how could it be that two protons will attract each other in one frame of reference yet repel in another?

is that highlighted statement correct guys ?

9
Celestine preetham ·

wat u r saying is partially correct but doent solve the Q fully

jus chk for the validity of the statements i had made

i have made an error in starter statement
find that

eg

A elephant are running .

there are grammatical errors above

similarly theres a conceptual error in the statement of starter

9
Celestine preetham ·

for the Good one im googling for an official ans

as far as the ans i have ( its 1 line explanation), i find no reason why it took feynmann all night

1
rajat sen ·

In the frame of reference which is moving along with the protons there will be an electric field with the same effect as that of the electromagnetic force in the stationary frame.

9
Celestine preetham ·

cmon guys the starter is very easy

jus chk for the validity of the statements i had made

9
Celestine preetham ·

actually i have a very trivial explanation !

inside circuit current is flowing implies electrons are circling . so their angular momentum is transferred to the outer spheres by means of EM waves

66
kaymant ·

If you didn't know that em fields had angular momentum, you can in no way explain the sudden appearance of angular momentum.
Apart from there, you can always find the torque exerted by the induced electric fields (as explained in the first half of the paradox itself) which is a standard NCERT text book problem. This will allow us to obtain the resulting angular speed but it will definitely not explain the appearance of angular momentum.

9
Celestine preetham ·

in #6 i meant einsteins relativity

for an official ans

http://physics.unipune.ernet.in/~phyed/23.4/23.4_Curiosities-5.pdf

now i dint know EM has angular momentum but still i was able to solve using another concept . Can u find that concept ??

9
Celestine preetham ·

@ anurag

you are way offtrack
theres no relativity involved here
its a starter concept

@ sir

yes that was same ans given by Mr.Feynman . Now assume i dont know that EM field has angular momentum then how will u explain ?

sir is it that Feynmann found that em field has ang momentum from this experiment only ?

66
kaymant ·

Answer for the good one: the assembly WILL rotate. The angular momentum comes from the em field!!

1
Anurag Khandelwal ·

Please tell me if you find my explanation satisfactory.

1
Anurag Khandelwal ·

Starter

First of all, the repulsive force would be prevalent in either of the two cases, since the electrostatic force of repulsion between two protons will be there in both frames. Yet, it would seem that the repulsive force in the first case is slightly diminished because of the attractive magnetic force. But here such a conclusion is flawed. In the second case, when the observer is actually moving with the protons, it is important to take into account the Lorentz contraction in length, which comes under the purview of the Theory of Relativity.
A contraction factor in length equal to 1/√(1-v2/c2) would actually show that the repulsive force experienced is actually the same in the second case as well. It is thus evident that the force which appears as purely electric in second case, appears as partially electric and partially magnetic in the first case. Hence it would be wise to refer to the force as electromagnetic rather than electric or magnetic individually, since both forces are façades of the same universal force.
So, the authenticity in the claims of Electromagnetic theory can safely be restored, only with a little help from Relativity.

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